JessV

Hi

My workflow has been very disturbed by this graph change. I need to sometimes select hundreds of animation keyframes and give them all the exact same graph curvature to base my work from, and this was very simple with the old Spine version where adjusting the single curve affected every key selected, both ease in and ease out. Now, it's near impossible to adjust all those key's curves when they are all showing in the view (now doubled because of separate X and Y controls) in unison. I can select all of the initial keys and drag the curve handles by boxing them, which is finicky at best, but it only adjusts the beginning of the curve. If I want to adjust the end of the curve, I have to hand pick all of the later keys and it's pain-staking. Could you please add the old singular curve view/manipulation tool back as an option? I get that this new view adds more options and specific controls, but it also over-complicates simple fast animation methods. I started using Spine 6 years ago to escape the messy unity animation tools and curves, and now they've come back to haunt me! :tear:
JessV
  • Bài viết: 15

Misaki

Hi,

Thank you for your feedback. Actually, there has been a lot of discussion about new graph view :
http://esotericsoftware.com/forum/Curve-Presets-in-4-0-16099
http://esotericsoftware.com/forum/4-0-xx-ver-Graph-16399

We are confident that some workflows have improved with the new graph view, but we still have various ideas to improve it. We'll continue to improve the future version and try to give you something as easy to use as the old graph.
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Misaki

Misaki
  • Bài viết: 656

JessV

I skimmed through those 2 discussions, and I agreed with the complaints from the one in english. And I also feel their points were being dismissed, deflected or argued with the insistence that the curve control is better. Yes, the curve control is better, but the usability is simply not. Reading that discussion felt as if there was some sensitivity and even offence on the Spine representative's part in defending the new graph, which is sorely misplaced in a system where users are having trouble with a tool that affects their livelihood. That user was even excessively polite in dealing with some rudeness from that Spine representative.
It's important that it's understood that we understand thoroughly, that the new graph system is better and has more detailed control, and better overall view of curves, but when you are animating and wanting to deal with immediate curves between 2 frames, it is not user friendly to have overload of information on your screen, and needing to take multiple steps in order to achieve something that once took seconds, even if it was less perfect, the usability value was higher. This is a ux issue, not a tool issue. When I say I would very much like the old graph back, I obviously don't mean "bring back the janky underneath workings that are inferior that you keep telling us about", and when the other user asks to bring back presets, it's the same story, we don't want the old graph system back. What we very much need is the usability of the old graph, and the old presets. A way to handle masses of keyframes curves in a concise readable window option, as it was before. A way to define our own presets and apply them elsewhere. We don't want to think about the relativity of the graphs and the finicky comparisons, we are animators, and we need to work quickly and with utmost control. If controlling all the curves in one single view of one single curve (as in the old editor) causes cusps, well then make an option button to smooth out cusps that takes curve control settings priority from your current curve view, or do it automatically, rather than argue with us about why the old one is worse. Take usability principles from the old one and apply them to the new system. I saw the Spine representative arguing that you can't see the curve handle controls from the small curve view of the old system causing cusps. Well, problem identified! The answer then is to make them visible, add a ghost of the neighbouring curves peeking in , and allow the user to pen left and right in the small window if they wish to check the neighboring curves quickly. Make a setting button that automatically adjusts the surrounding curves based on the curve changes the user has made in the current small graph focus between key A and key B. There are so many ways to bring back features of the old tool without threatening that the old tool was simply inferior and not good enough and you won't bring it back, you don't deem it necessary. We are your users, and the old Spine versions are your product, and we happily used it, even though it had these small imperfections in the graph! Please avoid letting developers belittle the needs of your very important users! There are other software options out there and if you neglect the usability of your software, most people will search elsewhere for other options, rather than spending their valuable time to come here and debate with your developers, or make lengthy posts addressing your product usability and the poor attitudes of your staff!

On a separate note, I very much look forward to the usability improvements you mentioned, and would love to hear about them!
JessV
  • Bài viết: 15

Nate

All of our staff puts great effort into customer support and including user feedback in our decisions. We do hear the concerns -- don't mistake explanation for being dismissive, argumentative, or deflecting. It would be much easier to not bother explaining anything to our users, but that would exclude users from the discussion.

We will continue to improve the graph, as has been discussed at length in other threads. We've started the 4.1-beta and while it hasn't proceeded as quickly as we'd like, it does a new feature for frame-by-frame animations: the Sequence checkbox on region and mesh attachments. That is something we've wanted to add since the first version of Spine. We'll have more new things for you soon.
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Nate

Nate
  • Bài viết: 11862

thohuhu

Sorry but I have to say that Spine 4.0 is a failure. Ive been using your product for 4 years and I havent find this 4.0 version any useful helps yet. It has kept really bothering my workflow
thohuhu
  • Bài viết: 2

Nate

@thohuhu, while dismissing as a failure all of the many things we've worked hard on in 4.0 is rude, I am sorry you feel that way. Note you can keep using 3.8. If you would like to help us improve 4.0+, please explain what you are trying to do in 4.0 that is giving you trouble.

In other news, in 4.1.08-beta we have changed how handles are adjusted when multiple handles are selected. The handle you drag moves as usual, but the other handles are adjusted similar to Match in the old graph. This means you can select handles for different keys, adjust a curve for one of them, and all the others will have the same curve shape (for example, slow then fast) -- even if their key frames or values are different. It looks like this:


To make it more clear what is happening, here I've drawn red boxes for each curve:


Also when adjusting a curve, the other curves are dimmed. We'll continue to make other improvements that should help. For example, ways to make it easy to select the desired handles or copy/paste for handle positions.
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Nate

Nate
  • Bài viết: 11862

Bastos

JessV đã viết:the new graph system is better and has more detailed control, and better overall view of curves, but when you are animating and wanting to deal with immediate curves between 2 frames, it is not user friendly to have overload of information on your screen, and needing to take multiple steps in order to achieve something that once took seconds, even if it was less perfect, the usability value was higher.
Hi, I have been using spine for about 7 years, and I've been animating with the new graph editor for 2 months or so.
This new graph editor is indeed a major improvement and like every spine user (hopefully), I appreciate the amount of work and time your team has put into its development.

I also share JessV's concerns about the impact the new graph editor UI has on some specific workflows.
Indeed, some animations don't require such a degree of curve control and precision.
What I miss about the old graph editor is the ability to "apply" a customised curve preset to a bunch of keys at once, directly from the dopesheet, in a single click.

I really hope you'll consider coming up with something as user friendly as the previous graph editor (while of course maintening all the possibilities spine 4 graph editor offers)
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Bastos
  • Bài viết: 4

Erika

You're in luck! Check the "Curves" view in Animate mode in the latest beta to find the old familiar way of handling curves :D
(personal comment: now we really can have the best of both worlds!)
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Erika

Erikari
  • Bài viết: 3064

Bastos

Dear god that was fast ^^
Thank you so much team, this is fantastic !
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Bastos
  • Bài viết: 4

JessV

Oh my gosh yay!! Can't wait to get this update integrated to our game!! Happy days! Thanks so much to the team!! :party:

Do you have any idea of the schedule for when this will be in an official version update (not beta)? We avoid using beta versions in our project. Thanks!
JessV
  • Bài viết: 15

Nate

Schedules usually end up being a fantasy. We'd have quite a bit more to do in the beta, then we'll focus on stability, then it'll be non-beta time. A couple months at least, likely, no promises. :)
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Nate

Nate
  • Bài viết: 11862

jamqdlaty

Nate đã viết:In other news, in 4.1.08-beta we have changed how handles are adjusted when multiple handles are selected. The handle you drag moves as usual, but the other handles are adjusted similar to Match in the old graph. This means you can select handles for different keys, adjust a curve for one of them, and all the others will have the same curve shape (for example, slow then fast) -- even if their key frames or values are different. It looks like this:
So in current stable version there is NO option to match curves at all? So, for example often I need translate relatively to an edge of an object that's scaling. Previously translation of one object could be easily matched with movement of another object edge due to scaling by simply using the same curve preset. How do I make two interpolations identical? Obviously the scale and translate graphs are scaled differently due to differences in value range, so moving handles without this feature you're showing here is not a solution.

While I like the addition of the graph and having ability to separate X and Y axis, I would not start working on a new project in the new version if I knew this essential feature (curve presets) was removed. Downgrading after having done quite a lot of work is out of the question. Please tell me there is still a way to match curves somehow.
jamqdlaty
  • Bài viết: 31

Erika

4.1 solves this problem by having the curve view and the ability to match curves and save presets in it. It is also fairly stable, I have been using it for the latest months with no major issues. If you could, I'd recommend switching to it, or have a little bit more patience until it becomes the new stable version.
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Erika

Erikari
  • Bài viết: 3064

jamqdlaty

I need a Solar2D runtime to be updated too for this project. I've seen it's compatible with 4.0.xx, so I updated Spine and started the project. Too bad, matching interpolations by eye seems not the right way to do it.
jamqdlaty
  • Bài viết: 31


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